We’re at a bar. I might hate myself, but not that much. So I’m drinking a beer that resembles soda less than others – it was Guinness or Weinshtephen, can’t remember. I wasn’t that drunk. Anyway, a girl a (gay) friend of mine knows is there. The world “revealing” doesn’t describe well her clothing. Her whole back’s exposed. She flirts with every guy there. She dances with the bartenders and the waiters. She gets free shots. The lead singer of the band calls her by name and tell her to leave the poor guy next to her alone.
To her credit, they were whiskey shots instead of vodka. The guy she was all over was also pretty big. Most girls I know prefer the skinny.
That’s going off-topic. The reaction to her from my friends is slut. There’s no depth to it. She’s a slut. She’s an idiot. She flirts with everyone and that’s disgusting. I’m supposed to not want to have sex with her because “the whole town was in her”. Gay man talks and jokes with her, but when we meet a few weeks later in someone’s house he talks about how stupid she is.
The exact same thing happened to me a year or two back. There was a time when every second or third week there was a house party. A certain girl came to most of them and she also flirted with everyone. She made out with a friend’s friend who came from overseas. Her outfit was meant to emphasize the shape of her body. My friends wanted her. They also went on and on, angrily, about how a slut she is.
What’s wrong with that?
I once got into a debate with some people on this topic. This is the main arguement. If it doesn’t make sense to you, it’s just a difference of personal experience.
The girl is passive and the guy is active. The girl works hard on her looks, but she’s not active in the interaction. The guy’s role is to flirt, to start conversation, to lead. He’s supposed to ‘get’ her. She’s supposed to not ‘give up’ easily. The harder the guy works, the more valueable she is. It also means that if you can get a hard to get girl, you’re therefore much more valueable. The girl is the reward.
There is so much wrong with this narrative that I’m not sure where to begin.
First off, if this narrative is true and that’s how it’s supposed to be, what is rape? After all, rape is when the guy ‘gets’ the girl, only his method is force. Since rape is awful and part of why it’s wrong is the lack of consent, it means we need consent in this narrative. However, this narrative doesn’t include it.
What actually happens in real life is not that the guy ‘gets’ the girl, but that the girl agrees to have sex, or go out for coffe, or to an Incubus live show. The girl is an actual active agent who does more than just look good. The girl also filters out the guys she doesn’t want, just as the guy filters the girls he won’t chase after.
There is no ‘hard to get’ because the girl is not something you get. Sex is not something you get. Sex is a shared activity that’s supposed to be fun for both sides, in the same way going out for drinks or to see a movie is. We may have a higher standard for sex. We will have sex with less people than people we go to watch movies with, but it’s supposed to be a shared activity. The girl also wants to enjoy this.
This narrative is also harsh on guys. It puts a death sentence on socially inept guys. If you’re not good at initiating conversations and flirting, you will never enjoy sex or the company of women. Now, I don’t mind that there may a lot of guys who will be forever alone. It’ll be right if it’s because they’re just not attractive, not because of a social mindset that views their behavior as wrong.
If a guy is forever alone because no girl was ever attracted to him, that’s okay. If he’s forever alone because he’s afraid to initiate, and girls who are attracted to him won’t talk to him because ‘it’s the guy’s job’ then it’s society that makes us against our will.
Another important thing that the narrative doesn’t touch is morality. Is there any moral reason not to have sex? Is having sex with a random person hurts anyone? I’m leaving off bad sex – rape, people who have sex just to cope with loneliness and the like. I’m talking about a situation with two people just want to have sex and there’s nothing hidden.
I don’t see how this hurts anybody. It could be I’m missing something. Until then, I will hold that just as it’s okay for a woman to meet me as friends, it’s okay for her to have sex with me as friends.
Sadly, I have this cached thought often. I see these girls and ‘slut’ comes to my mind. There’s a much stronger thought there, though. I love to see girls who flirt with every guy and aren’t afraid to show their sexuality. It’s not just because I’m socially inept and it’s good for me. I wish we could all be this social. I wish we could enjoy our sexuality without guilt. Sadly, even women thing it’s wrong for other women to have sex. I hope the future will be better.
Weapons 
Wonderful post.
But I think that in many cases, women who behave like “sluts” do it for attention.
They become addicted to cheap attention from men. A simple way to increase their own self confidence and to feel loved.
I think sex is something you do with a person you trust and who are with him on the same page
Otherwise it’s just masturbation
It’s not as simple as watching a movie or go eat because sex makes us a much greater enjoyment, from a much more passionate and deep. He takes us to hormonal substances. Especially in women, makes closeness and attraction over time.
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We all do things for attention. I write this blog with hopes people pay attention to it. Sex is a form of giving attention. Anywhere there is interaction, there is paying attention.
It’s bad when someone does it solely to feel love and not enjoy the sexual activity, but that’s not a reason to shame people to have sex. Just like self-harm is not that harmful in and of itself. It’s a symptom of a bigger problem.
It’s true that sex is not as simple as watching a movie or eating out. My arguement for it as a ‘shared activity’ is against the idea that women give sex, and the guy needs to ‘get it’. Sex is something a woman agrees to. It’s an activity that’s meant to be pleasurable to both.
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I didn’t want to keep annoying the person whose blog we were discussing on. We both go to the bathroom but men can parade around with their nipples showing while women are shamed if they don’t. I’m talking about how men can do something a women can’t. Why are you comparing women feeding their babies to having intercourse? Imagine you are a woman and your baby is hungry. Are you going to go out of your way to make sure no one sees you feeding your baby? When you say that you dress for females, not everyone does. I choose not to dress for males because I don’t care about my appearance. As cheesy as it sounds, he better like me without makeup and fancy dresses. Or he doesn’t really like me. If you want to attract shallow girls, fine by me. I don’t mind nudity, but I wouldn’t be nude myself. I don’t think being nude is sexy, because I don’t see certain body parts as sexual. Telling people to cover up IS shaming them. It’s teaching them that this is wrong, when I see men doing it so often. I see boys with their hands down their pants yet when I women wears no bra, all hell breaks loose. When you talk about flexing your abs at a funeral, women can’t walk in their own neighborhood without being gossiped about. With no bra that is. I see men jogging with no shirt, while I’m called rude names when the skirt is above the knee. I am in my OWN neighborhood. There is a time and place. But unless you want men wearing bras, women with no bras shouldn’t be shamed. I am part of the new generation, you sound like you are living in the 18th century.
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“We both go to the bathroom but men can parade around with their nipples showing while women are shamed if they don’t.” – I’m not sure if ‘shaming’ is the right point but yes, valid point. I want to know how male chests are viewed by those who are attracted to males. Breasts are considered one of the sexiest parts of the female body.
” Are you going to go out of your way to make sure no one sees you feeding your baby?” – I’d recommend going to a corner or somewhere where it won’t be in front of everyone’s eyes, where it will be less visible. Bathrooms can be used for that, too. Society expects the same thing of people who want to make out, by the way.
“As cheesy as it sounds, he better like me without makeup and fancy dresses. Or he doesn’t really like me” – Well, so far in my experience physical attraction is important. It’s not be-all-end-all. Halo Effect does exist, but I wonder: Have you ever been attracted to overweight or short men? (Two physical traits that are often considered unattractive).
” I don’t mind nudity, but I wouldn’t be nude myself. I don’t think being nude is sexy, because I don’t see certain body parts as sexual. ” – What are you attracted to, then? How can you be sexual without finding some parts sexy? (They don’t have to include chests or structure. Hands, legs, faces are all fine too). There is nothing wrong with finding things sexually appealing.
“Telling people to cover up IS shaming them. It’s teaching them that this is wrong, when I see men doing it so often. ” – The following question isn’t moving the goalposts. I’m asking it to understand your view better. How would you feel about people walking around with their sexual organs (vagina/penis) outside?
“When you talk about flexing your abs at a funeral, women can’t walk in their own neighborhood without being gossiped about. ” – You’re pointing out a different problem now, which is slut-shaming. We shame women for being sexual unless it’s in a very specific context that’s meant to please men. Going out in a revealing outfit? WRONG. Wearing almost nothing for magazine cover? Fine, but you’re still just looks and no content! Haha!
“There is a time and place. But unless you want men wearing bras, women with no bras shouldn’t be shamed.” – There’s a difference between shaming and legality. Laws often exist not just to dictate what’s moral but also what’s pleasant. We shouldn’t gang upon a person walking nude on the street, but would you find it pleasant if many people did it?
” I am part of the new generation, you sound like you are living in the 18th century.” – Kind of ironic how you say that on my post that explains why slut-shaming is moronic. I don’t think this ad hominem attack helps us.
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I don’t want to start a fight, I’m not like Abby. I hope we can have a mature debate on this topic. “I want to know how male chests are viewed by those who are attracted to males. Breasts are considered one of the sexiest parts of the female body.” As a female, I am not attracted to nipples because everyone has them. Female breasts are over sexualized in the movies and the media. “I’d recommend going to a corner or somewhere where it won’t be in front of everyone’s eyes, where it will be less visible.” If it makes you uncomfortable, look away. What’s so wrong with feeding your baby? If you were a female, you would understand. “Well, so far in my experience physical attraction is important.” In my experience, I wouldn’t mind if he was fat or had a beard that I hated. As long as he was nice and compassionate. Are you really that shallow? Will you only date a woman on looks? If she was ugly, you wouldn’t date her? I don’t care about looks, in my personal experience. “What are you attracted to, then? How can you be sexual without finding some parts sexy?” I’m attracted to a guy who has a great personality. If he is cute but a meat head, I’m staying far away, even if I like him or whatever. I don’t want to be sexual so um…”How would you feel about people walking around with their sexual organs (vagina/penis) outside? ” I don’t care, even if a man doesn’t show it, I know he has one. Plus, I don’t know him. If that guy was my brother, I would have a problem. (with bullies I mean). “Going out in a revealing outfit? WRONG. Wearing almost nothing for magazine cover? Fine, but you’re still just looks and no content! Haha!” I agree, but when women walk innocently on the street, without a shirt. Like I said, all hell breaks loose. Even on magazines, my favorite singer was called a slut. I think that’s what you mean…”We shouldn’t gang upon a person walking nude on the street, but would you find it pleasant if many people did it? ” We live in a country of freedoms, but I’m talking about how women are shamed when men aren’t. They have the same body part. You get my drift? “I don’t think this ad hominem attack helps us.” You must know me, I’m quite rude when I want to be.
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” Female breasts are over sexualized in the movies and the media. ” – They are over-sexualized in the media because most media is a male’s point of view. We see sexuality mainly through what men like or don’t like.
“In my experience, I wouldn’t mind if he was fat or had a beard that I hated.” – I’m not asking what would happen. I’m asking if it happened. We don’t date only on looks but we don’t date only on personality, either. I haven’t seen yet a romantic relationship that doesn’t involve physical attraction. I heard people talking about how personality matters but they always ended up with pretty people anyway.
“. If he is cute but a meat head, I’m staying far away, even if I like him or whatever. I don’t want to be sexual so um…” – Halo Effect. Good looks won’t save you if you have a terrible personality. Still, are you saying you weren’t attracted physically to some people? Attraction isn’t just looks but behavior, personality, scent, voice and so on.
” I don’t care, even if a man doesn’t show it, I know he has one.” – Interesting. So you wouldn’t mind if people walked around naked? That would make your position more consistent.
“Like I said, all hell breaks loose. Even on magazines, my favorite singer was called a slut.” – We have no disagreement that this is wrong.
” We live in a country of freedoms, but I’m talking about how women are shamed when men aren’t. They have the same body part. You get my drift?” – I think it’s time to separate two things. Legality and shaming. Not everything that is illegal should be shamed. I agree that shaming/bullying/ganging up on a person walking nude in the street is bad. But I’m asking why it should be de-criminalized?
I’m not well-versed in arguments for illegalizing public nudity. The basic idea behind it is not to expose people who don’t want to, to blunt sexuality (especially children who are yet to mature).
I don’t think we’re fighting. Excluding that pointless ad hominem attacks, we’re exchanging ideas about society. Society can’t change and improve if ideas aren’t challenged. I’m not interested in ‘winning’ or proving you wrong. I want to see what idea is more useful/more true. I could be wrong just as you could be.
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” I heard people talking about how personality matters but they always ended up with pretty people anyway.” Then no offense, but they are shallow. A guy that was “cute” could be a serial killer, but you focus on the looks. For me, personality is 100%, if he’s cute but not vegan. Bye bye. “Still, are you saying you weren’t attracted physically to some people?” I am but I don’t date people because of it. Looks don’t play a role in my decisions. If it did, I would be shallow. I do get attracted by personality if that’s what you mean. “So you wouldn’t mind if people walked around naked?” This is getting repetitive, I don’t care. Unless he/she was a danger to anyone in some way. You think the cavemen cared about being naked? No, because it’s natural. They wore clothes for necessity. “The basic idea behind it is not to expose people who don’t want to, to blunt sexuality (especially children who are yet to mature).” The naked body is only sexualized because of the media/movies. It’s a body part, look at your arm. You use it for getting around in daily life. Your bum is used to cushion you when you fall. They all serve a purpose. So why is one sexualized and the other not? Plus, I was talking about how women are shamed for something when men do it so often. Ever heard of a man with a bra? It’s unfair. And that’s what I’m fighting for. The movement is telling culture that it’s not okay that a man can do something a women can’t. I find it quite silly how on a women’s breast, they cover the nipple when men have the same exact thing! If anything, it should be the factor of the difference between them. I don’t debate for winning and losing. I debate because I love to see the other side. My parents NEVER look at the other side. And they are failing in politics because of it. I could be wrong, but when you experience inequality firsthand, it makes sense. I watched this amazing video on a guy who happened to be white and male. He was talking to a black woman. And when she looked in the mirror, she saw her race and gender.When he looked in the mirror, he saw human. Inequalities are unseen by those who have it. And I’m not saying you have all the equalities but it’s easier for me to spot them when it effects me firsthand.
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At this point, we’re lacking information. How much of that sexualization is because of culture/society and how much of it is inherent?
Until we have enough research says that tells us this, we don’t know what’s in our control and what’s not.
If they passed a law that says men must wear bras then I’d just think, ‘huh, okay’. These laws need to be based on some researches. This is the only way to bridge this gap.
Inequalities are indeed not as visible to those who don’t experience them. That’s why we have Suicide Prevention Campaigns and ‘Stop saying Islam is sexist!’.
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Thank you for your time. I enjoyed hearing the other side. I was just confused because we are talking about equality in everyday life. I bet Martin Luther King Jr. had no facts or evidence besides observations and personal experience. But anyway, thank you.
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